I guess it must be that time of year again when we have another discussion about ratings!

To be honest, it has become a bit of a bugbear of mine recently and has made my use and enjoyment of this site wain of late. In principle, the presence of a rating system is worthwhile and can be used along with written comments to assist each other in improving our skills. However, of late I have been coming on and looking at many pictures which I personally feel are very average, yet which have been scoring 10's. In fact I think 10 has been the only rating I have seen (apart from snap happy).

I dont want to point the finger at anyone, but feel that over the last couple of years it has just been slowly increasing month by month. It has become almost second nature just to tick the 10 box.

I myself have received many 10s - but to be honest I dont feel that any of them really deserve it (well, maybe a few!! ). I want to have a goal or a target. I can remember whan I first joined the site. I think I got one 10 in my first year. I can remember it was such a sense of achievement for me. I had something to aim for. Now it seems to me that anyone can put up any picture and it will get a 10.

I feel that the rating system currently does not help any new budding photographers. If gives out the wrong message and a false sense of achievement.

I like this site. I like it very much. There is a feeling of camaraderie which you dont get at any other site. I have made a lot of friends here. However, at the end of the day, this is a photography site, and above all - photography is why I am here. For me the way the rating system is used at the moment is worthless to anyone trying to learn or improve - myself included.

It is not necessary to get rid of the rating system - I just feel that we need to think about what we are using it for and how worthwhile it is. We have a responsibility to use it to help those starting out and not to use it simply as a meaningless gesture. I know people mean well but for me it has got to the stage where the site is not the same as it was and I feel that I am losing interest a little.

I dont want to stop posting and commenting - but at the moment I just dont seem to have the same enthusiasm as I did before. There is nothing to aim for any more. That ellusive 10 is a thing of the distant past. I want to know if a picture I submit is really any good - not just get 10's for the sake of it.

I know I have gone on a bit and I know that the rating system is only a small part of the site - however, I do feel strongly that the rating system is an integral part of the site which dictates the value and importance of why we post in the first place.

I know it is difficult to get a good balance between sharing photos, friendships and ratings / comments etc. But at the end of the day, all I would like to see is a photo getting a rating it deserves and to get back to a position where getting a 10 was something to strive for. If we could all give a few more 8's (which is still a very good score) and keep a 9 or a 10 for an exceptional photo. Even if you only give one 10 a week to start with - I feel that this would motivate people, myself included, to go out and try and take better pictures.

Thanks for listening.

Richard

hear hear!

I absolutely agree with Richard. This is getting a bit annoying, even when I believe in free speech: people can rate as they wish.

I'm not feelling motivated lately to post or take new images. I have to upgrade my account but I don't know if it's worth it or not. I think I'm good at photography, and I do get 10's (what I love) but when I see average (and bad) photographies with 10's too, it makes me think mine are not good either. And I'm not talking about styles, because I might like some styles than others don't like; I'm talking about quality.

There are some shots which are very funny to share with friends here, only for fun. I like that a lot. Also there are a lot of good pics that need some improvements but people only give 10's. After 4-5 10's I feel bad if I leave a comment saying that it needs improvement, so I don't comment. Finally, there are some bad images with 10's that make me close the blog until I get more patience to come back.

I remember there were so many great pics at the front page when I joined the blog with less than a 10... now a lot of those people who made them have left...

Anyways, there are only personal thougths and opinions

Carmen.

Personally, I don't pay attention much to the ratings. I'm one of those who can get a lot of sub-10 ratings, but it really doesn't bother me. What bothers me more is when I get a long string of pictures with no comments.

I'm partly to blame, because I know that a lot of what I do fits my personal feelings toward myself as an artist, and I attempt to make everything look beyond a normally held perception of acceptance, but that's the kind of stuff that feeds my personal photographic spirit. In the end, I'm disappointed nobody takes a chance to tell me they're not too wild about what I produced, so I get nothing.

On the other hand, I'm happy with myself. So I'd ask anybody having doubts about the rating system or about even sticking around, are you happy with yourself? That should be the most important thing going for you.

Chris

Hello everyone,

I totaly agree with Richard and Carmen,i have stopped rating as it seems if you put lower than a 10 on a photo it does not go down very well.I would prefer helpful comments on how to improve a shot.I think Richard has done this to me on occasions and i have taken it all in and tried to improve .Also only today i had a comment about the background on a bee i posted.Well to me that was more helpful than a rating.Yes i get some 10's but like carmen i see 10's on an average shot and go away until i can safely come back and look again.It seems that you only need to put a little effort in to gain these 10's.I can understand anyone that is new to photography will not be at the standard of some of the members here,but if they are rated a 10 they will never get better and see maybe were thay can improve.So come on bloggers please (and this includes myself) help is what is needed and by rating everything a 10 is not in some cases helping.

Whoops i have gone on a bit lol

Bridget

Hi all

Guilty as charged!! I mean not to give 10s and then I end up giving them. But it devalues the scoring system. As of tonight my 10s are going to be severely rationed if not totally absent.

I agree it is instructive comments that I want - hints on how to improve.

As an afterthought - would it be possible to have a fun section where images are not for rating? I know another site which does this and that would delineate between the serious images and those that are not seeking improvement tips.

As another afterthought - please do not give me 10s either - I value much more if my image is good enough too inspire a comment. If it is awful I certainly can tell by an absence of comments.

Viv

The motivation and passion for photography needs to come from within ourselves. Blaming it on things outside of that is a trick.

Besides, number ratings don't belong with art (photography is part of the Arts). Math is precise. Art is wide open for interpretation and subjectivity.

When I place a 10 on someone's photo, I'm doing it because I think it's fantastic and I really, really like it! It's genuine!

And I don't think people generally get carried away into thinking they've made it in photography just because they get a 10. Just as they shouldn't think they're terrible just because someone plops a 4.

You are on your own learning curve, and you need to click that shutter button because you are inspired by what you see, not by what you might get back. You have to like what you are doing. We are our own worst critics. Maybe we never feel like we truly made a great photograph. But maybe that's good. That's what makes us keep trying and trying. It can be so frustrating and yet it is such a passion. It's like an elusive goal trying to convey what we see...

Everyone goes through dry spells. And their tough spells. But blaming it on this type of peripheral stuff is a bit of a distraction as to the real reasons you might be feeling dry about it all.

p.s. Face icons should be the rating system: happy faces, neutral faces, pukie faces, and for those that find it necessary to say they find nothing inspiring around here we definitely need some yawning faces. A jumping mascot could be reserved for superior work.

-Danielle.

I'm with you, Richard - WAY too many 10's for quite mundane stuff (10 seems to be the only score that's ever given). When I first joined scores of 10 were as rare as rocking horse manure: now they're scattered around like confetti, which is one reason I don't give a score. To me a 10 is perfection and I have rarely seen a perfect photograph. My camera club has monthly competitions which are judged 'on the night' and the judges critique first and then give a score. Photos that I've posted here have been scored, at the club, at anywhere between 6 and 10 (only got three of those in three years!) and the criticisms have always helped me. I've become hypercritical of my own stuff and know that most of what I post here isn't as good as it should be and are probably worth 7. Not long ago someone (quite new) questioned the awarding of a 10 to a photograph by a regular and popular member and was shot down in flames by a couple of regular contributors - can't remember the exact comments but something like how dare he question their judgement.

This is a great site with nice people, but it may have lost the plot a bit. I agree that there should be a part of the gallery where people can post just for fun and friendliness and sharing 'snaps' but we've lost sight of what photography is about, I think. Either that or disregard scoring altogether for general posts and have a gallery which is only for critical comment A lot of people have come and gone, including some excellent (and serious) photographers who, I'm sure, did so because of the increasing tendency not to ruffle anyone's feathers. When I was at uni (too many years ago) I can remember feeling blind hatred for a lecturer's comments on some my essays until I actually started to think instead of feel - did a whole lot better after that.

Sorry for the rave - but I had a lousy night's sleep last night! Jan

p.s.

I had a quick re-look at your most recent uploads Richard.. maybe you should include some form of this message in your descriptions when you post if you're not getting what you're looking for.

Hi Danielle

Thanks for your response.

I agree with what you are saying about motivation to take photos etc and that it should come from within. However, that is not really the reason for this thread. I am self motivated when it comes to photography. This site, nor any other, does not affect my willingness or desire to actually take photos. There is no connection between my own photography and the rating system on this site. That is not the problem I am really trying to highlight

The reason I use this site is to share my photos and to get feedback on them to see that I am going in the right direction and also to keep me grounded. It is also nice to chat with like minded people who share my passion for photography. I am a member of several other sites where critique is the main crux of the site. There you get straight talking feedback which is fine and I am all for that as long as it is constructive.

The problem, as I see it, is nothing to do with my own photography, but rather with the way this site is going. I feel that over the last couple of years the standard of photography has dropped. I am not saying that everyones standard has dropped - there are still some excellent photos - but only some. A while back there used to be a much higher standard across the board.

Personally, I think that the rating system has fueled this. It has watered down the overall quality of pictures on the site. I dont feel people are learning anything new and I feel that giving 10's all the time contributes to this.

I have always enjoyed this site and would like to contiunue to do so, however, recently I have not been motivated to do so because of my frustration at seeing so many average shots getting 10's. It is not about my own motivation to take better photos but more for a desire that we all can take better photos and be able to use this site as a tool to improve.

Currently that is not the case.

Cheers

Richard

hi Richard,

I can't speak to the motivation of participating in the site. I do find you quite silent though in that if the ratings are odd to you, especially on shots you think are quite average, speak up. The kind of site environment you wish for requires participation.

And I guess I don't understand the kind of weight being attributed to what people 'rate' with numbers. I guess it would have an entirely different meaning to me if the ratings were stamped by well established professional photographers who were the judging panel. But most of us are learning. I'm always trying to do better as I go because I just have so much to learn (I'm still learning new things about my camera!) and also from knowing I haven't nailed anything. Tens don't at all make me think I've nailed anything. Maybe because I interpret them the way I use them in that for me it's a way of conveying Wow I luv your photo! If you take them more literally and are feeling a bit miffed about how it's being done, I also don't understand why there hasn't been more effort on your part not only to express and welcome such critique to your gallery but .... oh never mind...

We're coming from completely different perspectives and I'm just going to nod my head and say see you.

Good luck,

D.

I am probably the newest blogger commenting so as such have least experience. But I am aware I gain 10s in places I should not. I agree with Oly that I don't accept that as true judgement on my image. I judge my own images and they lack so much - things still to be learnt - things I may never learn - lack of imagination etc.. So I always take those 10s, and indeed any ratings, with a big pinch of salt. However it would be nice to see people rate more appropriately as it will make me strive harder. I am sure that is true for most people.

What is needed though, is some form of critique in the comments - indicators of how someone else might have tried the same image. Only when we hear how someone else sees it can we view our own work differently and learn.

So I don't think the ratings are the whole problem but the lack of suggestions and ideas in the comments.

Viv

Hi Danielle

As you say, I think we may be approaching this from different angles.

I used to make comments all the time and would always say if I felt it could be done differently or changed in some way to improve it as well as praising it when due. Its not that I dont want to do it or that it has become more difficult - it is just that I feel there is no longer any point. That is where my motivation is now lacking. Perhaps it is just me.

I dont want to fall out out with you or anyone over this. I admire your photos greatly and you have a wonderful style which compliments the artistry of your shots.

I suppose at the end of the day the problem lies with me. Perhaps my attitude has changed over the years. I could be like Mald and give honest comments but I have seen the backlash that he receives. I agree that his delivery is not perhaps the most tactful, but 9 times out of ten I would agree with what he says. I feel this site has moved away from a critique site as it used to be. Now it is just a place to come and get patted on the back.

Of course, everyone is here for different reasons, but for me it has become a little tiresome and perhaps this site is no longer for me.

Cheers

Richard

Hi,

I agree again with Richard and also with Jan. But first of all I want to say that I am happy with me and my work, and I meant I wasn't very inspired to take pics to post them here. Of course I have full inspiration since I open my eyes in the morning until I go to sleep. All I do in this moment in my life is for photography, so I'm not worry about my photography when I see average pics with 10's, I was only worry about the point of this blog. There are plenty of photography sites with amazing photographies, but I love this site and lately it was changing too much.

For me there are some different types of photographies. Those that are meant to be perfect in quality like wildliefe shots or portraits, like those wonderful birds and thingies that Alan and Ken have (and more members, it's only an example). When I shoot those subjects I want to achieve something like that, if I don't get it I don't need a 10. I have seem blury bees and so with 10's, not bad shots but not perfect, what's the point? Another kind is art-experimental photography, there are some members who have really cool images. Finally (but there are more, of course) there is those moment-shots, those unique images that tell little stories, wonderful shots even when they are not perfect because they happen in a precise second (my favourite type). My comments and ratings are according to my idea of photography, so I'm not blaming anyone for giving 10's becuase eveyone has his/her idea.

Anyways, I do believe in free speech, so free rating and whatever. I'm not going to loose sleep with this, it was only a perception some of us noticed about the use of ratings. No need to go further than that and question myself if I'm happy with me or some other existencial issues
Carmen.

I would like to say two things here.

First, Danielle is now my personal hero for her suggestions on smiley's being the rating system. to that I say... four smileys.

Second, kidding aside. I agree with viv that I may give out more 10's than I should but my 10's come from honest inspiration. Coming from the standpoint of a beginner, some of the work I see on here is incredible. But that may be only because I have been doing this for a short time. So when I rate with a 10 it is in comparison with the how I see my own work. I see what is there and how I like it, but I don't know why. So I give it the best when I feel it is worth it.

I do apologize for the times when I flood the comment board. I am only trying to pull my weight in this community. I have read about people's frustrations with lack of commenting and have tried to respond in turn. Since I can often only look for a little while, I try to comment on as many as inspire me for the day as I can.

I wish that people would be harder on my photos. I want the criticism and have attempted to show it by posting updated versions of photos that have received corrective comments. I am not easily offended and value all that can be said.

My comments to others are usually positive because I don't know what's wrong with them. I want to learn like you do. Viv and Alan and Nigel and John have given me some excellent tips that would have taken me weeks to figure out on my own even if I even knew what to look for.

So that said, I agree with the statement that the comments mean a lot more than the ratings. But I do not think that they should be done away with b/c they amount to a pat on the back and a "atta boy" when I get one. They are sort of a super smiley.

If it is a genuine concern though I will save the 10s for only the Pulitzers.

As always I will try to help further this community however I am able and thank you all that have been here longer than I for making it what it is today.

Hey all,
I can see every ones point of view and thats what a good discussion is all about.
For me the rating system is pointless. I am 1 that usually gives 10's, but I give a comment also. I am not educated in photography at all, so giving lower ratings and not being able to explain why is futile. With my 10's all I'm saying is that your photo touched me in one way or another and I TRY to explain why. For me anything less than 10 would be a criticism unless I can elaborate on why. I have picked up things in here to help with my constructive comments but theres tons of things I dont understand. I cant tell someone to fix this or do that different when I dont know myself. All I know is that I like that photo and I want you to know that also.
On the flip side, getting 10's is alright, but without a comment whats the point? All I need to know is if there is anyone out there thats appreciates my photos, style, subject matter, or anything I'm doing, and that can only be expressd in words, not some stupid number.
So, if I comment you probably get a 10 because its as good as I could do or hope to do someday. If I dont then I wasnt quite feeling ya on that one, but look forward to the next. If someone wants to get a panel of professionals in here to pick our photos apart I'll pass. Im here cause I love to take photos and strive for that "perfect" shot (which will probably never come), and cause it makes me look at the world closer than I ever had before. Your comments help me grow, or feel good about my stuff, but your ratings go by the wayside.

P.S. I dont know what EXIF means so I sure as heck cant look at it and tell you what you did wrong. And nobody (except Chappo) has done that for me. Educate the rest of us and we'll return the favor.

Hi All
I'd just like to add my twopenneth as a relatively new member. Although I joined a while ago I've only recently started checking the site regularly and uploading one or two pictures. All credit to a week's photography holiday with Mr Prior on the Isle of Skye for stirring my interest and enthusiasm again. As a manual SLR user some [mumble] years ago I learnt the basics the hard way - no autofocus, program modes etc. Having bought a DSLR 18 months ago I was fairly tentative about it's use and was less than impressed with the results I achieved... yet the first picture I posted on here got a 10 rating and this confused me even more as I knew it wasn't that good!!

As a renewed newcomer I would appreciate constructive criticism from all angles - be it technical, composition or just purely subjective. As CP told us, when trying to encourage us all to submit the worst as well as the best of our shots for morning critique, the only way you will learn is by the mistakes that you make. Although no-one picked their worst shots to put on display we all learnt from our teacher and from each other about the skill we will be trying to master for years to come.

My argument is that, if we all congratulate without providing constructive criticism then there is little point in posting images other than for self-congratulation. I am using these sites to learn and improve: if someone has helpful advice to give it will be accepted with gratitude for the time and effort that has gone in to providing me with feedback. If a comment was in anyway malicious they would be politely ignored (and there would be a hope that other forum members would comment if they appeared particularly unreasonable... )

I agree that perhaps the icon rating would be easier to manage rather than a numerical scoring system. I also wondered whether feedback/rating could be split between technical proficiency and subject matter - in which case the fun element could be rated when, perhaps, the technical element isn't quite there. Just a thought

Helen

It would be nice if we were all a little more honest with our opinions, I see shots that I think could be improved on but after reading the comments and seeing everyone giving the image a ten rating I’m reluctant to say so. I know it can be difficult to critique someone else’s images but personally I would far rather hear people’s honest opinions, at least in then gives you a chance to rectify your mistakes.…. Tony

I have been following this debate but Dean's comment stirred my fingers...
Personally I only give a 10 rating if, in my amateur opinion, it is a 10 (or a Beau Derrick) to me personally.
I am hesitant to make any negative comment unless I feel I have gotten to know the person but I also do not like to look at an image and then close it. Some innocuous comment at least lets the photographer know that it has been viewed. When you see areas of improvement on mine please point them out.
Now for exif... the first thing I look at in an image is the exif or meta data...what are the camera settings...this gives me an idea of the degree of difficulty of the shot.
I then make up my mind on the image before I read any comments.
What I find most challenging is when I have a critique to improve the image (IN MY VIEW) and see that it has a number of 10's. In this case I keep my opinion to myself.
I personally do not see how one can give 7, 8, 9, etc. If we are going to change the rating system then lets go to the club judging system of points out of 15 with impact, innovation and technique. For this we need qualified judges..I would not feel qualified to make these calls.
Should we get some qualified judges to provide us with some guidelines for evaluating images... I am sure Mark could organise this..
I found these by Marvin Bartel......

I. Is it evocative?
A. Do people stop and look at it? Why?
B. Is it innovative or is it trite and banal?
C. Is it a gimmick or will it wear well?
D. Does it symbolize anything beyond itself?
E. Does it reflect a personal style or is it generic?
F. Is it universally important or is it trivial?
G. Is it stunningly beautiful or average?
H. Does it praise or condemn anything in the photographer’s world?
I. Does it document or explain something to average viewers need to consider?
J. Does it express humor, grief, joy, or some other feeling?
K. Is an idea or concept being expressed?
L. Are there sufficient abstractions to make visual implications and metaphors possible?

II. Is the photograph stylistically innovative or stylistically derivative? Is style gimmicky?

III. Does the Composition Work as Formal Design?
A. Do the elements of the compositions move the eye around the composition or is it static?
B. Do all parts seem to belong or is a part that is too inconsistent with the rest of the photograph?
C. Do any lines or vectors move the eye off and away from the composition?
D. Is directional placement effective? Do moving part face inward or is anything placed so that it is expected to move off of the composition?
E. Are there distracting mergers between foreground and background parts?
F. Are there mergers with the edges of the composition?
G. Is depth or flatness obvious or does it make a subtle contribution to the mystique of the photo?
H. Is there appropriate framing or cropping to maximize the effects created by the composition?
I. Does size and scale heighten the message or feeling without being gimmicky?
J. Do the tonal, color, and textural choices increase the photograph’s power without overpowering it?

keep snapping in the photographic sense folks....

john

Errr....That sounds really scarily techinical John! I'm a newbie, and to be honest when I'm taking a photo, most of that really never enters my head. Maybe that's why I'm a newbie, and everyone else is rather better. For me, I post to the blog to learn. I learn from looking at other people's pics, I learn from asking them questions about how they acchieved particular effects, EG Carmen, Chris and DigitalSnapHappy who all chipped in to teach me about HDR. I mostly disregard the numbers, as like many users I'm finding that 10s are distributed a little too easily. I also tend to avoid posting a comment when either I don't aggree with the ratings given, as I don't want to sound like sour grapes (maybe it is ), or when the picture really doesn't appeal to me, as it is simply a style thing. I quite like the ideas of smilies for rating. Numbers wise, I'd like to adopt the marking system my first yr sciece teacher used, which was to give 7/10 for good, leaving 8,9 and 10 for differing degrees of excellence. For my part, I'm very grateful when people take the time to comment on my pictures, and for any suggestions about how to improve for next time. If i don't seem to be taking it on board it maybe that I simply can't witht he limitations of my compact. Perhaps it would be best to have 3 categories for posting a picture, so when people look at it, they know what it was posted for. maybe they could be 1) suggestions for improvements wanted, 2) wanted to share a special image, 3) just for laughs, perhaps designated by different colour backgrounds. Then everyone would know exactly where they stand wity each image. Just my twopenneth.

On that note, Mark, is it possible to add a forum for discussion of techniques used? Cheers.

The answer to the problem is to provide a separate gallery for critique only. Whatever solution (is there one?) - PLEASE no smileys scoring.

Thanks John for that list of criteria - very useful.

I think using something like smileys would translate directly to the number system, and we'd be in the same spot we are now, just with happy faces instead of 10's.

Chris

A separate category for critique is possibly a good idea it’s certainly done on some other sites. However I’ve seen it cause problems and degenerate into a slanging match when the originator of the image doesn’t take kindly to the comments they’ve received...... Tony

Sorry I just cant let this one die. I see this touches many people in here, but the only thing that I see thats changed is now if people dont think its a 10 then its a big, fat nothing. I myself dont care about the number, but Im sure some still do. I dont have a solution to the problem, but I do have a suggestion to help in the commenting process. Somewhere in our profile or whereever I think should be how long we've been doing this or our experience level. Then if someone says theyve been doing this for 127 years I'll know my comments arent going to be that helpful. But if someone is just starting at this (like myself), then I know some constructive comments may be in order. Then people wont be as scared to look like a shmuck, not knowing if their comments are to a "professional" or someone just like them. Peace. - Dean

The thing is, nobody's immune from posting turkey shots (meaning bad, not shots of turkeys ) just by being a photographer or poster longer than somebody else. Take a look at my photos, and you'll see plenty of room for improvement, even though I've been doing it a while. So nobody should be able to rate or not rate based on anybody's years in the hobby and/or business.

Chris