Samsung Pro815 Announced

#1 max meier

ok if they bring I buy sounds great

3:53 pm - Saturday, June 4, 2005

#2 noel michellesfriend

is it true that the lens cannot be replaced and that the price would be just around 1100us$ ?

i've always thought why not an SLR that is truly prosumer ?

this looks great to me !

2:46 pm - Tuesday, June 7, 2005

#3 noel michellesfriend

i sure hope that the lens can be replaced

2:47 pm - Tuesday, June 7, 2005

#4 Shing

Len could NOT be relace!!! Hope the Len is that good with 2.2 at 28mm.

7:13 am - Friday, June 10, 2005

#5 Mark Goldstein

The lens on the Pro815 is a fixed lens - this is not an SLR camera

10:09 am - Saturday, June 11, 2005

#6 Nicholas

My questions regarding 'missing' items in the Pro 815 press release:

What is the lens size ( 58mm ?? ) We will have to buy at least a UV filter.

Will the camera 'Lock' to record Raw files?

Can you charge the battery outside of the camera?

Is there a 'Live' Histogram? The Press Release discusses this issue only in terms of after the shot is taken.

If the camera is to be shipped in August 2005, when can we expect sample images on the WWW?

Regards, Nicholas

12:04 pm - Saturday, June 11, 2005

#7 Xi

Don't forget - there is no Optical Image Stabilaser just Electronic, - too bad for that long zoom. :-(

12:48 pm - Monday, June 13, 2005

#8 Zoltan Arva-Toth

Let's take a closer look at this lengthy press release. What it says and what it doesn't.

1) The brand name Schneider-Kreuznach does indeed sound good. They are a world-class manufacturer of lenses for large-format cameras, and they were the first company to produce a zoom lens with a fixed maximum aperture for 35mm cameras, way back in 1964. (I think it was the Variogon 80-200mm f/4.) If there is someone out there who knows how to make a superb lens, these guys do.

2) Still, we will have to see how this particular lens performs in terms of chromatic aberration, spherical distortion, centre and corner sharpness and vignetting - or lack thereof. The press release talks about aspherical and LD elements but to what extent they succeed in doing their jobs remains to be seen.

3) No doubt this lens will be compared the f/2.8 Leica glass that has been incorporated into the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ10 and FZ20 digital cameras. The Schneider-Kreuznach beats the Leica by about 2/3EV at full wide angle (and full wide angle here means a LOT wider than on the afore-mentioned cameras) but lags it by app. 1.5EVs at full telephoto. That said, f/4.6 at 420mm eff. is still decent for a consumer-grade camera.

4) Are the focussing and zoom rings mechanically linked? If both are, that's a BIG plus, making framing & focussing fast, silent, precise and efficient.

5) That 3.5" TFT monitor is good news and I'm pleased that there's a manufacturer who knows what photographers really want. However, 235,000 pixels sound a little too few for such a huge display. It's perfectly enough for a 2.5" monitor, but for a 3.5" one??? Not so sure.

6) A large-capacity battery is also something Samsung deserve kudos for. Amidst all the Megapixel Wars (Episode I through VI), manufacturers have largely neglected this very important issue.

7) On to the design, there seems to be very little space for the right thumb on the back panel. You really need to hold the camera in your hands to judge this but the product shots give reason for concern.

8) The dual function of the top LCD is a novel idea, and might actually prove useful. And whilst 1.44" might not sound like much, remember that even Nikon's prosumer models used to have only 1.5" TFT monitors in the past (think of the Coolpix 5700, for example).

9) The lack of image stabilisation is an interesting issue. After all, this can easily be remedied by the use of a tripod - BUT don't forget that a 15x zoom camera is essentially a convenience product, invented for those too lazy to carry an entire SLR system on their shoulders. Will the prospective buyers of the Pro815 be ready to lug around a heavy tripod? I doubt that.

10) Samsung's answer to the previous question is that at full telephoto, where stabilisation would be most needed, the camera will automatically switch to a higher sensitivity setting, ISO 800 if necessary, to ensure a fast-enough shutter speed and thus avoid camera shake. While we have seen that cameras with even smaller sensors can now produce stunningly clear images at high "ISOs" - the Fujifilm Finepix F10 comes to mind -, I remain a tad doubtful that *any* small sensor can reproduce that from now on. And again, we will have to wait and see if the "exclusive low-noise processing algorithm" really reduces noise without sacrificing TOO much image detail.

11) Colour Temperature Adjust is a great feature and is usually offered by mid-range and top-end DSLRs only.

12) Similarly, hats off to the 10fps burst mode, even if it is only available for one-megapixel images. While they are not suitable for printing posters, they will definitely look good on any monitor and will print well in 3x4-inch size. The only other still camera I know of that does 10fps is the EOS 1V, a top-end film SLR from Canon.

13) As Nicholas has already pointed out, the press release does not explicitly say there is a live histogram overlay function available. If it's missing, then that's a huge defect. About the only thing digicams can offer over DSLRs - apart from the convenience of a good all-in-one lens - is the ability to display a live histogram, which is very handy in avoiding blown highlights.

14) And of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating: a camera might have a great lens, a rich feature set, superb handling and all - if the images it produces don't look good, it isn't worth a penny. Stuff like dynamic range, colour fidelity, tonal gradations etc. are as important as anything discussed above. But to learn about these, somebody has to test the camera. Mark?

1:09 pm - Monday, June 13, 2005

#9 Mike Frankle

One other question. Does it have what Samsung calls "Composite Shot", which I believe allows one to do multiple exposures on a single frame?

The announced 5 MP models both have this feature which I myself have wanted for a long time in a digital camera.

Thanks

Mike

9:09 pm - Monday, June 13, 2005

#10 Dr Krishna Raman

I emailed their representative and got a prompt response. Apparently this camera does have a live histogram . I have enclosed their reply to me for all to read

Dr Krishna Raman
Chennai
India

Kyle Kappmeier wrote:

>Dr. Raman -
>
>Thank you for reaching out to me. The Digimax Pro815 does have a live
>histogram. The Pro815 will be available in August for a street price of
>$849 (US).
>
>If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.
>
>Best,
>
>Kyle Kappmeier
>Account Executive
>R&J Public Relations, LLC
>908-722-5757
>
>

3:03 am - Wednesday, June 22, 2005

#11 Ted Wilson

Does anyone know if this will be available in Hong Kong and when? Iwrote to Samsung HK but have not recieved a reply.
Thanks,

5:10 am - Friday, June 24, 2005

#12 Ted Wilson

Does anyone know when this camera will be available in HKG? HKG usually gets all the great electronics and cameras before anyone else.

Thanks,

5:11 am - Friday, June 24, 2005

#13 Nicholas

Well Everyone,

All these comments sum up things very nicely.

Samsung, please bring on the sample images!!!!

Regards, Nicholas

10:08 pm - Sunday, June 26, 2005

#14 Darko Hristov

Finally, thats a camera that comes close to my ideal.
and that is:
-at least 10X fixed quality lens
-phisically big sensor
-large outside viewable LCD that can be used for composing
-large capacity batt.
-speedy operation and good fps value
build it and yours is the world my son!
I am starting to love that company.

9:57 am - Wednesday, June 29, 2005

#15 Darko Hristov

and of course manual zoom and focus

10:17 am - Wednesday, June 29, 2005

#16 Jan van der Meer

Great Zoltan Arva-Toth report!
Thank you and we totally agree with given comments. It indeed does not seem a very easy wearable cam. For first review we have to wait for a dpreview?

Still does anyone know is ringsize 58mm???
Can we still use our HVL-F32x Flash?

Also wonder if (possible) new Sony F939 can beat this monster.

11:10 am - Saturday, July 2, 2005

#17 Kaka

I like this camera!! It looks beautiful! The only thing is that Samsung digitals pictures haven't impressed me. So I'd have to see a whole load of pics to be interested in it. I'm definitely interested in a Sony F929 !!!

4:23 am - Monday, July 4, 2005

#18 Jan van der Meer

What is his mailadres?
>If you have any further questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me.
>Best,
>Kyle Kappmeier
>Account Executive
>R&J Public Relations, LLC
>908-722-5757
What is his mailadres???

5:50 am - Monday, July 4, 2005

#19 Jan

For DUTCH reading Pro815 fans:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pro815/

1:26 pm - Monday, July 4, 2005

#20 Salvador Frigola

I believe that if the optics has good resolution, lack of aberrations and the noise at high sensitivities is within acceptable levels, Pro 815 could be a "world's premier" within prosumer range because of its huge 235,000 pixels 3.5" superscreen, and upon my opinion very good resolution (At present I have a Sony W-1 which 2,5" screen has 123000 pixels, proportionally a 3,5" should have 172200, while PRO815 has 235000) and the W-1 displays a really nice and good resolution picture.
To have a real-time backscreen, is a characteristic in my opinion basic in a digital camera, -DSLR's lack of-, with the added hint with thw PRO815 of the top-panel screen that allows the waist level shooting, or over the head to overpass obstacles. It satisfies what I had been looong time expecting from a digital camera, and after having
tested several, recently a Canon EOS 350D, that, for my surprise, didn't convince me at 100%, and before testing it, I was dreaming about this camera and having it in great consideration. Ever since digital photography has been developed , is for me, a condition "sine qua non", that the back screen displays pre-shoot image, what is called "in real time", like the point-and-shoot do, and I consider an error that not to have it in the DSLR's, although all the superprofessionals of the world, who must know much more than me, use to say the opposite -. From their opinions in this sense there are good samples in the excellent dpreview forums . At the moment I am walking my digital photography first steps with a SONY W-1 after shooting many years with Nikkormat FTN, and others, and without being able to enjoy the advantage that supposes to build the photo in real time and correcting errors. I have galleries in http://community.webshots.com/user/sfrigola2 -(all photos shoot with the W-1).
By the way, 350-D (that I'm still considering a great camera), its rear mini-screen of 1.8", is in addition to small, so low resolution, or its software so bad , that, when you zoom, you see less than when you don't. In the case of the 2.5 inches screen of the W-1, is just the opposite!, this means that zooming is useful to appreciate details of the image because when enlarging the image keeps the same level of good resolution (as I think it has to be to be useful), because in the DSLR's, if moreover that you
don't have previsualization, the resolution is so low, they would save money puting instead a monochrome LCD just for data display.
I also tested other DSLR's, like Pentax * ist-ds, with 2" nice and good resolution screen, not preview, but very OK, since as it delivers a good image quality, at least it's useful for something, however I wasn't satisfied with, as far as photo quality leaves much to be desired.
I also tested the Sd-9 Sigma (another world) whose quality of image, chromatic, resolution, approaches a lot to 35 m/m film slides. but is not practical, very heavy, two simultaneous batteries of different types, and a high current consumption. the back little screen gives a so poor resolution that's nearly useful for nothing except as a data display, and I presume the software is obsolete cause the memory access is very slow.
So, retaking the initial thread I am very anxious to see what the Samsung PRO 815 will actually offer, -it's very close that my ideal for a digicam- but since I have already learned from my personal experience that you can't trust 100 % about the theoretical data, and the "Reviews" published results and samples, because even though the technical data are normally certain, the quality of the photos is not know until you have used them largely.
By the way, when and where the first samples?
Salvador
Spain

6:35 am - Wednesday, July 27, 2005

#21 Nicholas

With that 3 1/2" TFT LCD, you can still see the image with the camera held over your head, the press release indicates it has a widw viewing angle. For me not needing eyeglasses will be a blessing far outweighing the lack of IS.

I wrote the same Samsung Rep and was told Image Samples will be on the web in August.

Regards, Nicholas

P.S.
The specs of the Pro815 are better than the Panasonic LZ30 for my purposes.

8:19 am - Wednesday, July 27, 2005

#22 jef

We need more samples--photo, problems, etc

10:02 am - Friday, August 12, 2005

#23 Jan

Jef wrote: "We need more samples--photo"...

More??
I haven't seen one single picture yet....
Or did I miss something?
In that case, give me the link!

10:37 am - Friday, August 12, 2005

#24 Salvador Frigola

I'm so anxious to know something new about the PRO815 that I've been searching day after
day on the web for any samples or news about
release date or something, and haven't been able to find anything.
My personal ranking of the photo websites
that are the quickest publishing any news about the digital cameras world is:
http:///dc.watch.impress.co.jp
http://dcdv.zol.com.cn/
http://product.pchome.net/00/02/24/59/
http://www.dpreview.com/
http://www.photographyblog.com/
Maybe the best Samsung paga about the PRO815
is from Germany's Samsung website:
http://www.samsungcameras.de/
--once there, click "mehr info"--
It seems that Samsung digicams are manufactured by its subsidiary "Samsung Techwin" who makes from heavy machinery (military included) to appel juice, and all
their websites are very lack of PRO815 info,
being the german where i found the most.
In some newly appeared cameras are the Taiwanese or Chinese photo websites where I
first found samples or infos, and
"dc.watch.impress.co.jp" uses to be one of the earliest.
If anybody has info about where samples can be found (or retailer's release date)
please, please, publish it.
Salvador Frigola
Spain

4:08 pm - Friday, August 12, 2005

#25 Salvador Frigola

As a correction to my last message, the link to dc.watch.impress, has to be:
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/
Salvador Frigola
Spain

4:15 pm - Friday, August 12, 2005

#26 Jan van der Meer

First Pro815 photo's and impressions with one of the 5 samples during Amsterdam Sail. http://www.global-dvc.org

12:55 pm - Sunday, August 21, 2005

#27 Salvador

The latest (Aug, 30) news I have about the PRO 815, come from Samsung Germany, where I wrote to enquire about the
release date, I got this answer:
"In Germany this Camera will be available by customer around week 38.
Best regards
M. Berry
Samsung Germany"

Not a word about when there will be good and useful samples on the web, those from Holland
and the ISO 800 ones from dp forum are not representative of anything, and too small.

Salvador

6:07 am - Thursday, September 1, 2005

#28 Marco

by the way it seems this camera has alot on under its belt...lets just hope it shows...

5:39 pm - Sunday, September 4, 2005

#29 Jan van der Meer

Received From Axel:

Hello Jan, Wow! I didn't expect such a quick response -THANK YOU!
I've looked on the pictures and have two concerns: purple fringing (in my opinion too visible) and noise (I've expected less).
I guess we will have to wait for production models to really see how it performs.
Neverthless thanks a lot for the pics!

Best regards,
Lech

Global Digital Videographers Centre wrote:
You're the first one to respond and i'm pleased to sent you the pictures,
but because we got NO TIME to do some real testing we had to fiddle round
and and see now on the data what the menu settings were!
Overall impression: like on paper this cam could be a hit if the first
prod.models are toppie!

5:20 am - Monday, September 5, 2005

#30 Alexander

The Sony R1 will become available in November or even later, but almost all of reviewers have obtained the sample camera. It is in the news.
The Pro815 is to be sold in a few weeks. What about review and sample images?

7:42 am - Monday, September 12, 2005

#31 Zoltan Arva-Toth

First official(?) samples: http://www.samsungcamera.com/product/pro_view.asp?pro_uid=498&cat_uid=9&tabmenu=3#tabs

...horrible tonality, like a GIF. Obviously oversharpened, but even then, they are shocking. And yes, they look bad in print too.

Can't believe it's an official Samsung site!

3:08 pm - Thursday, September 22, 2005

#32 Alexander

How do you value the tonality? Maybe it's the girl's natural face colour.

The images are oversharped too much - any further sharpening damages them. And it seems the CCD can be noisy. It would be better to see someone review with ISO200-400, aperture open and less sharpening settings.

8:29 am - Saturday, September 24, 2005

#33 Zoltan Arva-Toth

Maybe I should have said tonal transitions. Look at the background of the protrait, for instance - the tonal transitions are very coarse - as I said, like a GIF.
I agree that oversharpening must have a lot to do with this, but at such low sensitivity settings it should not be like that, not even with a 2/3" sensor.

12:35 pm - Saturday, September 24, 2005

#34 Alexander

The images do strongly suffer from overprocessing, it's obvious - just look at hair. And compare them with images from 7D or other DSLR, which definetely are not oversharped. IMHO the causes of the phenomenon can be different - one curable, one not. The possible curable in the future is the absence of Samsung proper experience in good image processing algorithms. This can be (hopefully) fixed by firmware update or even before the camera release (it is not still being sold).
The second - bad - is too much noise even at ISO 50. In this case the software engineers had to smooth the image in order to eliminate the noise and after to sharp it to showdetails. This case is the worst because it can not be cured for this model.

Concerning the image at 108 mm (420 equivalent) the background should be washed because of DOF. Maybe you meant it should be more smooth?

3:09 pm - Saturday, September 24, 2005

#35 Zoltan Arva-Toth

I was talking about the tonal transitions. They are coarse, not smooth as should be. There is severe posterisation in the background.

(Posterisation "occurs when a region of an image with a continuous gradation of tone is replaced with several regions of fewer tones, resulting into an abrupt change from one tone to another", Wikipedia says.)

3:17 pm - Saturday, September 24, 2005

#36 Alexander

Maybe you are right, but I've written it because I've looked at bokeh by Minolta D7 and Pro 815 and haven't found noticeble (for me) posterisation of Pro815 background. The number of unique image colours (of the whole image) is 420767, which is normal.

4:13 pm - Saturday, September 24, 2005

#37 Zoltan Arva-Toth

There is a new set of samples up now.
The posterisation that was so obvious in the first ones is not really observable in these but the new ones, especially those taken in harsh direct sunlight, still look too "digital" to me, especially the way highlights are clipped and colours are rendered.

11:06 am - Tuesday, September 27, 2005

#38 Mikey

Funny how they only post ISO50 images... Makes me nervous. Has anyone bought this camera yet - in Tokyo, Seoul, London, anywhere? It was supposed to be out two months ago and still I have not seen any user or professional reviews or even previews. Makes me wonder if it is still a lab bench prototype being trucked around to shows. I don't know if I can hold out too much longer to see this camera - I am itching to upgrade my camera soon.

11:43 am - Tuesday, September 27, 2005

#39 Jan

The more I read all over the world about this camera, the more I begin to think negative about it!
I was very curious to see pictures, but now I'm convinced that something is wrong with this camera It's just a feeling.... but the whole campaign to launch this camera is so amateuristic and mysterious!

Jan

11:58 am - Tuesday, September 27, 2005

#40 Alexander

I've made a simple but unusial operation with the images - blurred them in editor. The images became much better! So I suspect something like excess one sharpness operation. Maybe the final camera will change the sharpening algorithm and settings/

12:02 pm - Tuesday, September 27, 2005

#41 Mikey

I downloaded the manual - it is now available online. All that remains is the actual camera I have only had time to look at the features so far, and feature-wise this thing looks excellent. But from what I have seen in other Samsung products, the data sheet usually looks awsome and some critical flaw not reflected in the specs makes it unusable - like painfully slow shutter response or AF or horrible image noise or unresponsive LCD. I am waiting with morbid curiosity to discover this wonderfully specified product's fatal flaw.

12:57 pm - Tuesday, September 27, 2005

#42 Alexander

Let us see the ready product. As it is not still on the market, I think Samsung is updating firmware. And I hope the company is reading this and another digital photography forums and will take into account the opinions of the majority of posters (especially on the sharpness level of postprocessing which exceeds any imaginable requirements). They still have time (they cannot change the hardware, i think ).

4:00 pm - Tuesday, September 27, 2005

#43 Salvador

I also think that the camera manufacturers read this and other photography forums, and they take account of the prosumer possible customer who won't be satisfied with "just any camera" but, instead will research for specifically quality parameters and camera features. I have a SONY W-1 as my first digicam, to learn with and do "may first steps" in digital photography, but I'm at the same time widely looking at all the specialized reviewers (dp, steves, dcresource, I.R., dcwatchimpress) and others,
as to try to find the camera in the prosumer range that fits the most with my expectatives.
Thus I subscribe 100% what Mike and Alexader say, cause that's exactly what I think, it is curious to see that, I'm from Spain, and they can be from USA or UK or elsewhere in the planet, but we share similar thoughts and do similar steps in our reseach to spend our money with something that truly responds to the previously announced caractheristics, performances and so on.
I saw as a curious fact that in the dc watch impress you could see a photo from the FUJI S9000, and the same photo could be seen from the Panasonic DMC FZ30 -link to the review-(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/review/2005/08/08/2060.html)-link to the photo-(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/parts/image_for_link/28113-2060-12-1.html -a group of railways with some buildings) in both camera's reviews there were two photos, one at wide angle edge, and the other at maximum tele range edge, if you compare them at the computer's screen the Panasonic (despite its noise) was much sharper and better than the Fuji one; well, if you go now to this dcwatch Fuji review -link to Fuji's review-(http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/review/2005/08/22/2123.html)there are plenty of better sample photos but the bad one I saw has dissappeared!
I downloaded it so I can send by mail to anyone who wants to see.
Mickey is itching to upgrade his camera, -me too!
Jan fears that something may be wrong with this camera since the whole campaign to launch it is being so amateuristic and mysterious! -me too!
Mike is waiting with morbid curiosity to discover if in this wonder the PRO 815 (as stated) should be, there is any fatal flaw, -me too!
If as Alexander says, the (any) company has to read the future buye'r fears to quickly try to mend poor quality product upgrading the software and so on, to be on time on the market with something that maybe was to early announced when was not yet ready, in my opinion should not mean anything good in favor of this company.
And now the forecoming SONY R-1 can put the things more difficult for the 815, and everybody knows that at SONY's they have a looong experience and know a lot of making cameras.
Salvador

5:37 pm - Tuesday, September 27, 2005

#44 Jan van der Meer

Samsung Holland promised me my Pro815 camera is coming first week october 2005!

I still haven't read anybody's comments on the big question will the new 10mega Sony with 5X zoom and zoomed in afterwards till same Samsung size on say A3 format in general without any adaptors be better than the 8mega Samsung with 15x zoom?

IMHO Samsung wins this easy. Plus the fact that Samsung has more futures plus the better Flash jumbo LCD and one on top and....... MPEG4 Video (Sony has not!!) (Which I as videographer experienced as very handy in some circumstances!)

So for me we can't put our first Samsung because of bad promotion in the dustbin!
THey are not stupid they want to be market leader! They just don't know yet how to do this first job well!

Competitor Sony will probably see first daylight at Easter 2006 and Samsung by that time will announce an even better price!

So who can answer my big question?

5:13 am - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#45 Jan

It's very strange that, although the Sony R1 comes later on the market, that there is already much information about it:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/r1.html

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_4383.html

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1126163353.html

At this moment I don't trust the whole situation around the Pro815.

No official tests, no test-immages....
Only a day in Amsterdam....

My big concern is the immage quality at 15x zoom without Image Stabilisation.
Now I'm using almost a year my Panasonic FZ20, with great pleasure.
I find it almost impossible to shoot (handheld)a 12x immage whithout IS.
I'm very curious how the Pro815 tackles this issue. At the beginning I had good feelings about this Pro815, but now I'm very disappointed in their whole way of launching this camera. So in my opinion they are still working on certain emerged problems....

Jan

6:16 am - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#46 Alexander

I agree that the way Samsung puts the camera on market is a bit suspicious. All major players provide reviewers with pre-production samples that they can make their opinion and - the main aim - advert the camera to its potential buyers. This is the specifics feature of digital camera market, especially prosumer or DSLR cameras. Almost all the potential buyers read reviews before they make decision to buy.

I still hope the ready camera will have much less default sharpening and totally postprocessing settings. This is a common opinion of digital photography forum visitors (they are the persons who buy and use cameras) and even some of the reviewers (Phil).

7:37 am - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#47 Salvador

For those being interested in new samples from the SONY DSC R-1, i enclose a link to
fotopolis.pl where they have a nice and good study of the camera with their own samples in many different light and ISO's conditions:
(http://www.fotopolis.pl/index.php?gora=4&lewa=3&e=3342&p=7)
Another link to photo.net, no samples, but a very rich and professional forum:
(http://www.photo.net/equipment/sony/DSC-R1/)
Salvador

10:24 am - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#48 Mikey

I think that there is a predictable answer to why Samsung can't get the camera out on the market or even to reviewers. The noise is not part of the spec sheet, so it was probably left as the last thing to deal with in development. If the giants like Canon, Kodak, Sony and (to lesser extent) Fuji cannot easily deal with noise, I imagine it will be at least as big a problem for Samsung engineers. However, if they froze the hardware before completely dealing with the noise, they are probably now working 24-7 to try and fix it in software. How do you deal with noise in software? you blur the image. How do you deal with a blurry image? you sharpen it. So that would explain the oversharpened samples. Perhaps they throw new samples up on their site and then read the forums for a reaction, hoping to find a balance of blurring and sharpening that does not offend anyone too much. And they can't release the camera to the reviewers, because once an unfavorable review comes out all the early adopters that are waiting for the release will all go get a Fuji or a Panasonic or a DSLR. So yeah, I have some concerns about the Pro 815 and I am very curious to see how it works out when they finally do release it. My deadline is someplace in October-November when hopefully the Kodak P880, the Fuji S9000 and the Panasonic FZ30 will all be widely available. Then I can crawl out of my rathole to a bigger city and play with all three head-to-head. If Samsung is not on the shelves by then, they're out.

11:50 am - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#49 Jan

Th Polish site is very slow (at my pc), so here is the English summary of the Sony-R1 test:

SUMMARY IN ENGLISH

Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 is a highly unusual construction that has every chance of success on a seemingly stable and DLSR-oriented (especially if the image quality is a priority) market. The camera is too good not to appeal to a serious user.

Robust body, control dials and buttons finished to a high standard, ergonomic grip - Sony DSC-R1 wins with most budget DSLRs that are currently on the market. Couple that with 10 megapixel resolution and all the necessary shooting modes, and you get a powerful photographic tool. "What about the lack of interchangeable lenses?", some might ask. One has got to bear in mind that we are talking about a prosumer digital camera that is supposed to appeal to as many consumers as possible. Still, the built-in Zeiss zoom is constructed in such a way so that it is a perfect partner for the R1's sensor - this combination easily outperforms many budget DSLRs, especially when they are combined with the not so good kit lenses (slower and with a much less versatile zoom range). Sony DSC-R1 is capable of delivering sharp, detail-rich, highly saturated images. Fast response, impressive auto exposure performance and accurate white balance are among other pros. Very good battery life is also worth stressing.

However, the camera is by no means perfect: the number of consecutive shots taken in a series is not impressive, high noise levels at ISO 1600-3200 disappoint, macro capability is worse than expected, electronic viewfinder can not compete with pentaprism (or even porro-prism) viewfinders found in DSLRs (it is much less comfortable to work with). But you get LCD live view (including white balance) instead.

To sum it up - if you are looking for a first class camera with first class image quality, good lens (when interchangeability is not needed) and even better handling, you should definitely consider Sony DSC-R1. It is the best prosumer digital camera on the market. Highly recommended!

This test was performed according to DIWA standards.

12:04 pm - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#50 Alexander

I've looked through R-1 samples. They have very high resolution and low aberrations. But I agree with other Russian persons (including camera testers), that R-1 has rather suspicious postprocessing too. The images look too "cartoonish". They said "The image has been drawn". Look at the bus, for example. Of course, R-1 has very good optics and very very low noise matrix, compared to other prosumers, that are its advantages. But the ears of the algorithms are well seen.

Concerning Pro815. I'm realy surprised if Samsung couldn't produce low noise matrix (as it is spoken now). Samsung is much worse than Sony in goods that require some "processing" knowledge and experience. The example is acoustics - Samsung's ones sound worse, at least it has been so since ancient times. But Samsung is better than Sony in microelectronics (chips), at least it stands at the same level. Samsung is the No 1 memory manufacture (including flash), No 1 LCD manufacture. These are adjacent technologies with CCD production. So the only reason Samsung produced noisy matrix is (IMHO) they haven't payed appropriate attention to the problem.

On the images, including the last ones from a Zoo: if the camera sharpness would be set to the lower level, they will be good enough as we observe them at 100% on screens. The sharpness (resolution) seems not to fall down to the edges. The vignetting is low and visible only at the top and down corners. The XA were seen at the image edges, not at the center. So the lens is really good.

If the Samsung engineers are reading this forum, please , decrease the sharpness level! Simply try to blur a bit any sample and look at hair. They become look as they should! Compare the result with any DSLR or other prosumer samle. Only housekeepers can enjoy the shapness level you proposed. The prosumer camera consumers hate it, as the dpreview forums have shown.

The possible ISO noise would be the issue, even the showstopper, if the things are bad. Does the image with ISO 125 show noise in shadows or it is the natural texture? Nevertheless, all current prosumers (except R-1) produce nice images at ISO 200 and even higher. It is the consumer standard.

3:07 pm - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#51 Mikey

OK, I went and read through the user manual for the Pro 815 that Samsung has posted on their web site. I had a few surprises. First, there is no mention of ISO800 - the initial specifications indicated it would be available. That seems to indicate that noise could be an issue - the ISO800 feature may have had to be nixed because noise would make it unworkable. More importantly, there is a note that the "high speed" continuous drive (2.5 fps) is only available at ISO50 and ISO100, not ISO200 or ISO400. That makes me REALLY nervous. I can't imagine why higher sensitivity would prevent higher capture rates.

I am not INTIMATELY familiar with the principles of CCD operation, but my layman's understanding is that ISO setting basically controls the analog gain (boost) applied to the signal coming off each CCD pixel sensor. This would imply no time difference between capturing an image at ISO50 or ISO400. The only thing that I can imagine taking extra time and preventing "high speed" continuous drive at higher ISO settings is if a large amount of post capture noise reduction processing was needed to make higher ISO images look passable. Anyone with better knowledge of the underlying electronics willing to offer a better explanation why high ISO might slow down capture rate?

The more I hear about this camera, the more it looks like a standard Samsung overspecified underperformer. A shame, really, I was getting hopeful.

6:32 pm - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#52 Salvador

I hope that we do not execute the criminal before the judgment has been celebrated, serves the metaphor to illustrate that we all sent to condemn Samsung by its shameful precipitation in announcing to big drum and subject of gossip a camera that was not ready yet, and has not even taken place the definitive test that consists of having it in hands the serious and important "reviews" like dpreview, dcresource, steves, imaging resource, dcwatchimpress and so on.I share a priori the opinion of Jan, Alexander, Mikey, and I do not expect the "miracle" of Samsung surprising all launching a camera that really fulfills all the previously engaged specifications. I believe that the reasonings of Mikey, Alexander and Jan are very logical and I understand them and share to the 100%. On the other hand, (IMHO) a serious manufacturer, i.e. -Sony, Canon, Olympus, Nikon,- to mention 4, do not have to base the launching of a new camera on a bunch of supposed world-wide records, as if a sport competition was, I I believe that everything has importance (lenses, zoom range, size of screen, battery capacity, etc.) but we do not forget that all this lacks of importance if the quality of obtained photos is mediocre or bad.
Salvador

9:39 pm - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#53 Stefan Hundhammer

Uh - about that "high speed" thingy: I think you seriously misunderstood that. It has nothing to do with how fast you can take a series of images - only with the ISO setting, a.k.a. "ISO speed". What they do is simply use a higher ISO value for long focal distances - to compensate for the lack of an image stabilizer.

The rule of thumb is you should use the reciprocal value of the (35 mm equivalent) focal length as the exposure time - thus, for that camera's 420 mm you'd need 1/400 second. You get that on a bright, sunny day in death valley - but not in ordinary environments where you'd want to use that focal lengh. So if you move up the ISO value from, say, 50 to 400, you gain 3 full exposure steps - this is about as much as an image stabilizer would get you.

So much for theory. I am really eager to see any real higher-ISO pictures taken with that camera. The examples from the samsungcamera.com site only have ISO-50 and ISO-100 - that doesn't really tell us anything useful.

If that really works out, my S1-IS will be on eBay in no time at all, traded in for a Pro815.

But I'll really wait for any professional review on that camera - in http://dpreview.com style.

11:00 pm - Wednesday, September 28, 2005

#54 Mikey

Perhaps I did misunderstand the "high speed thing", bit I was not referring to the goofy "High Speed Shutter" feature. That is a sorry bit of marketing that anyone who shoud rightly buy this kind of a camera will immediately disregard. Fuji S9000 seems to have a similar thing, but at least they have what seems to be the lowest in the segment noise level at high ISO settings to back that up.

I was referring to the drive mode, the Pro 815 seems to have up to 8 of them. These include single shot capture, continuous capture (capture rate - frames per second - not indicated), "high speed" continuous capture (2.5 fps - whooptie doo), "ultra high speed" capture (10 fps at 1024x768), various bracketing modes (exposure, focus, white balance) - these by the way are EXTREMELY flexible, and a curious periodic mode with the camera powering on to take a shot and powering back off once a specified interval (good for surveilance I suppose). Well, the "high speed" drive mode, i.e. the 2.5 fps, is only available at ISO50 and ISO100. That's why I thought that they had a problem capturing a frame each 400 ms. and squeezing in all the image processing needed to hide the noise. I don't have the PDF of the manual handy, but I will look at it again tomorrow and post a quote of what I mean. Or I will post a mia culpa if indeed I misunderstood it on the first read.

2:56 am - Thursday, September 29, 2005

#55 Alexander

Everyone will have such thoughts on the ISO noise until Samsung confirm or reject these logical without any doubts conclusions with high ISO samples.

Anyway, if the camera has noisy ISO 100 and above it will kill it as a market product to the big number of consumers, who read reviews and understand the things. This means the camera is unusable in most of the cases at focus ranges above 200 mm equivalent or so, because of requirement of 1/200 exposure and less, which is only possible in a sunny day. Lover exposures require higher ISOs, and they should be clear in this case. And Pro815 definetely can fail compared with lover zoom range prosumers (A2, A200, 828, 8080) because their optics is optimized for the relative short zoom range (they don't have other).

So, where are the HIGH ISO samples, which make “High Speed Shutter” feature having any sence, both with the so featured camera itself? At least not noisy ISO 200 will make use of the camera acceptable, if the owner forgets the “High Speed Shutter” feature.

5:10 am - Thursday, September 29, 2005

#56 Alexander

It seems that the camea is being sold for now!
Look at the user samples (unfortunately, resized and I do not understand Chineese or Korean)
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4

Thanks for the kind person from dpreview
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1001&message=15221715

5:38 am - Thursday, September 29, 2005

#57 Mikey

So, as promised, here are the quotes from the Pro 815 manual that make me think they are doing an inordinate amount of noise reduction to make the ISO200 and ISO400 images passable.

The first quote is the description of various drive modes that the camera has:
----
Drive mode
􀆃 Single shooting ( ) : Takes one picture only.
􀆃 Continuous shooting ( ) : Images will be taken continuously until the shutter button is released.
􀆃 High speed continuous shooting ( ) : This takes 2.5 shots per second when the shutter is pressed down and held.
􀆃 Ultra High speed continuous shooting ( ) : This takes 10 shots per second, when the
shutter is pressed down and held. After completing the continuous shooting, images are saved and the images play back on the Rear LCD. The maximum number of shots is 30 and the image size is fixed as 1024X768 ( ).
􀆃 Auto Exposure Bracket ( ) : Use this menu if it is hard to decide exposure of the object. The camera will take 3 or 5 shots with settings at, below and above the set exposure.
􀆃 Auto Focus Bracket ( ) : Use this menu if it is hard to decide distance of the object.
The camera will take 3 or 5 shots at different focal points.
􀆃 White Balance Bracket ( ) : Use this menu if it is hard to decide white balance of the object. The camera will take 3 or 5 shots at different white balance settings.
􀆃 Interval shooting ( ) : You can set predetermined intervals for the camera to take pictures over a period of time.
----

The second quote is from the description of the ISO sensitivity selection:
----
You can select the ISO sensitivity up to 100 in the High speed continuous mode and Ultra
high speed continuous mode.
----

So, as I said before, I can't understand what prevents them from capturing at the same speed when using higher iso settings. Oh well, I never designed a digital camera myself, so hopefully it is for something other than noise reduction and resharpening

1:50 pm - Thursday, September 29, 2005

#58 Stefan Hundhammer

Probably with higher ISO settings the image post-processing is also more CPU intensive to reduce noise. I could imagine that there are multiple cycles of blur filter + "unsharp mask" filter to keep the noise down. This of course degrades image quality in some other ways: You don't only lose the noise (which is intended), but also miniscule image details, and edges can easily be over-sharpened.

We will have to wait what the first real high-ISO images will show. I haven't found any in that Korean forum (but thanks anyway for posting the link) - or have I overlooked something? I simply clicked into every thread with "815" in the subject.

2:27 pm - Thursday, September 29, 2005

#59 juan

Only I have seen samples images from the korean site of samsung and the colour is really good, but, there is a bit of noise in the shadows. And I didn´t like anything samples images of the sony-R1 from dpreview. Incredible noisy images, it´s a shame, 1000$ for it.
Conclusion, I think samsung pro 815 was a good camera, althougt it´s a pity the lack of the image stabilization.

12:25 pm - Friday, September 30, 2005

#60 K

Are you kidding me? The Sony R1 has no noise. Even ISO 1600 is usable and ISO 3200 looks pretty good too. Images upto ISO 800 are noise free for even large prints.

It's the Samsung that has way too much noise. Now that the Sony has been announced, Samsung has taken longer to release theirs because they don't konw what to do. Surely a photographer who wants high quality prints will pic the R1 over the 815. Only thing the Sony doesn't have is movie mode, but I'd take the large noise-free sensor over that any day.

Also, the R1's reviews have only been done with a pre-production model. The actual production model will be even better. Imagine that!

4:55 pm - Friday, September 30, 2005

#61 Stefan Hundhammer

I just got answer from Samsung Germany about the release date: They told me the camera will be in stores in Germany by next Monday - Oct. 3rd.

I think we can expect the first serious reviews shortly after that.

5:29 pm - Friday, September 30, 2005

#62 Marco

humm...this camera is starting to seem kinda shady...so much around it, yet, $hity samples...hummm

1:43 pm - Saturday, October 1, 2005

#63 spirra_kr

Take a look at these official samples - lovely to me~

http://www.samsungcamera.com/product/pro_view.asp?pro_uid=498&cat_uid=9

2:49 pm - Monday, October 3, 2005

#64 Jan

Every time I get an 'Error Message' with this link - anybody else too?

http://www.samsungcamera.com/product/pro_view.asp?pro_uid=498&cat_uid=9


Jan

3:00 pm - Monday, October 3, 2005

#65 Salvador

Jan, I tried the link and it works, it takes u to USA Samsung site with their samples gallery, that stands already there for a few days, I won't say they are bad, but they can be very "processed" as to display worldwide, once is known the potential customers expectation, ITS VERY SUSPICIOUS THEY HAVE DELETED THE ISO 800 from the camera specifications at the following site: (http://www.kenox.co.kr/idx.asp)which looks very cool!,.
By the way, we are overpassing the "fatal" (October - 03) date, and I haven't noticed any 815 selling movement, I tried to the Austrian, German, Australia, and other shops who were already announcing it and accepting forecoming purchase orders, and everything keeps unchanged.
If anybody knows something new, please, please tell it!! if it's really gonna be the best "prosumer" I'm itching to buy it.

4:59 pm - Monday, October 3, 2005

#66 Jan

Strange, that link still doesn't work for me.

I looked at our Dutch Samsung site:

http://www.samsung.com/nl/

Not one digital photo camera found !!!
No trace of the Pro815
Oh boy, oh boy..... whát a company....
They better take master-classes at Panasonic, Sony, or the other players in this field !

6:05 pm - Monday, October 3, 2005

#67 meagain

Jan - You're not even looking at the right site. Of course it's not going to be there.

8:36 pm - Monday, October 3, 2005

#68 Jan

Of course I know that!
But as the other link is still not working on my pc, I was curious what Pro815 information was placed on the Dutch Samsung site.
Nothing.....

8:51 pm - Monday, October 3, 2005

#69 meagain

the detailed info is all over the samsung sites. Why do you keep clicking on a non-functioning link? http://www.samsungcamera.com/

10:52 pm - Monday, October 3, 2005

#70 Alexander

It seems the camera has been already sold in Korea.
Google Translation

5:08 am - Tuesday, October 4, 2005

#71 Jan

http://www.samsungcamera.com/product/pro_view.asp?pro_uid=498&cat_uid=9&tabmenu=3#tabs

Apparently the link was not complete... but for me the link is now working.

9:01 pm - Thursday, October 6, 2005

#72 Stefan Hundhammer

But still not one single picture with ISO-200 or ISO-400 anywhere...
In bright sunlight anybody can take great pictures with the most mediocre of cameras.

9:08 am - Friday, October 7, 2005

#73 Alexander

Look at the forum - It seems the 815 users consider images with ISO over 50 as noisy. But I'd like to see ISO 200 by myself.

Google Translation

10:21 am - Friday, October 7, 2005

#74 Stefan Hundhammer

Those automated translations sure are funny to read, but to be honest, I can't make very much sense of them.

10:58 am - Friday, October 7, 2005

#75 nick in japan

A great step foward Samsung, BUT, what we need are a couple more things, Give me a Panasonic 16x9 sensor in this thing and an IS system and I'll buy one! The future is wide screen, drop out the movie mode ( thats what they make video cameras for!) and squeeze in the Image Stabalization and 8-10mb wide sensor and you have a winner!!!!

4:33 am - Saturday, October 8, 2005

#76 Jan van der Meer

Just wait with any comments untill you actually worked with this thing!
And BTW I know a lot of users who do like to take some video footage with a photocamera. That is why our choise goes first to Pro815 (+ bigger zoom) and not the new Sony!

7:51 am - Saturday, October 8, 2005

#77 Nick in Japan

Sony, also , has missed the boat, they gave us the H1 with a super zoom, IS, BUT screwed it up with only 5mbs and no English language mode in the Japanese version, then their next "Beta" version has a great body but no lens, a pricey tele jacks the price way up, and the slow end of the zoom is rediculous. You can keep your low quality movie modes, awful! Panaleica is on the right track, looks like Samsung is too, we just gotta be patient till it all comes together,, IS, low noise, 16x9 sensor, super zoom, low angle viewing, big LED and, for you "Gotta have video too" folks, a movie mode with lottsa pixels!

9:00 am - Saturday, October 8, 2005

#78 Alexander

I would say the future will require video mode, as flash memory is becoming cheaper and bigger, and camera has all necessary for video capturing.

The main thing the future reqires is not megapixels, which mean really nothing, but noiseless matrixes with high dynamic range. Do you really beleive the 8 Mpix of a prosumer is "real" 8 Mpix? If so, try to compare the original images from the Pro815 or any other 8 Mpix prosumer with images from 6 Mpix Minolta 5D or 7D. No doubts you'll see the difference - the images from DSLR are more "alive", natural, their dynamic range is impressive, they do not make agressive sharpening to show details - they simply show them as they are. And 5D or 7D has less noise at ISO 1600 than Pro815 seems to have at ISO 200. So the difference is more than 3 f-stops ! The prosumer should make all possible to eliminate noise, not to increase megapixels, because it doesn't encrease image resolution due to high noise levels.

The main prosumer advantages are high zoom ranges, live preview and relatively low cost of the "all included" package. An entry level DSLR costs about 700$ itself, and good optics costs even several times more than the camera body. Kit lens are rather bad in terms of speed, CA, flare and tones. But as the DSLR has 3 f-stops advantage, it can shoot the same scene at 6.3 when prosumer needs 2.8. And at such apertures even kit lens are not so bad.

The new threat to prosumers comes from 18-200 (36-300 in 35 mm)lens, which are coming on the market even from the main manufactures. The problem of this lens is that the companies do not want to make them "middle" quality to compete with their own middle range lens. So the 18-200 lens weights 2 times less than 28-70, for example. But then stopped down these lens are acceptable for many amateurs.

So the prosumers need low noise high DR matrixes, very good optics, quicker focusing, better memory buffers to stay alive. And of course, relatively low cost when competing with cheap DSLRs with ISO up to 1600-3200, lightning speed focusing, RAW buffers.

9:38 am - Saturday, October 8, 2005

#79 nick

35-38mm is not wide enough for anyone that is half-way seious about photography. For years and years, manufacturers have touted this as wide angle, 40-60mm is considered by most as normal. False ads sell cameras and then the un-knowing consumer finally figures out the lens sucks! Samsung got it right with 28mm! The crime continues, Panasonic says their LX-1 is 26mm thick, it isn't, it's 50mm thick! I agree with you Alexander on your comments. I'm a LX-1 user and will spend my next $ on something with a 16X9 aspect ratio, I'm hooked. I like Samsung's initiative in lens, and design inovations, just gotta get IS and wide sensor installed!

10:55 am - Saturday, October 8, 2005

#80 Alexander

I've just read the dpreview's Minolta DSLR talk thread on prosumer vs DSLR and have made some intermediate conclusion: DSLR isn't good for everybody, even if it costs as much, as prosumer. Here are my thoughts. Maybe it can help somebody to make his decision.

The DSLR cons are, in the order of problems:

1. Cost and weight of lens. The typical prosumer has 28-200, Pro815 even more. The range is typically covered in DSLR world by two lens: 24-70 (or 18-50 or 28-70) and 70-200. As the entry level DSLRs have 1.5 crop factor, 24 becomes 36 and 28 becomes 42. 18 only corresponds to 28, but 18 is rather rare - I only know Sigma 18-50 to be more or less good lens, but they say it has too cold tones. So, 36 is the starting focus distance for the most of lens.

Two lens instead of one. A need to interchange them. This requires you to carry a bag, and some time to change lens. Two lens, even if third-party, but having acceptable quality, cost as the DSLR body itself. Need to say that these two lens provide better quality, than prosumer lens. But you need to pay at least the same money you've payed for the body. And the experienced people say: Do not buy cheap lens. They wouldn't satisfy you in the future and you'll have to buy better ones. And it would be cheaper to do it from the very beginning.

2. No live preview. No rotatable LCD for top-style shooting. The absence of live LCD may confuse many enthusiasts as they cannot see the picture they take on big screen, only via viewfinder. Some of the people complain of absense of live histogram for better exposure, but DSLR owners say their cameras provide better exposure metering even without live histogram. But anyway, it requires some experience and is not "for every housekeeper".

3. Many DSLRs are designed for professional use, even for enthusiasts. That means, they require more experience from the user. No scene modes. They assume the user knows what he is doing. The simpliest example is DOF - depth of field. It is nice tool for the user, but can become a disaster for unexperienced user.

4. Did I mention the size and weight of the camera? Pro815 isn't light itself, but it's from the lens. And the pair of lightest DSLR (550 g) with only one good lens (24-70, 700 g) weights more.

5. Again, if one wants to obtain good images from the DSLR he should spend at least 300+ $ for one zoom lens. Cheaper zooms are definetely as good, as they cost. So, be ready!

5. Such small thing, as video.


So, DSLR are for thoughtful, experienced photography.

DSLR pros:

1. Much higher signal/noise ratio and dynamic range. That is ISO 1600 as clear or even clearer as ISO 150+ of typical prosumer. The dynamic range allows shooting scenes with high contrast (light skyes with dark buildings are visible at the same time). Their combination allows user to change exposure if shooting in RAW for several f-stops without significant noise arise or blown highlights.

2. Focusing speed. Combined with high light sensitivity, this makes DSLRs ideal for shooting at dim light, indoors or at long focal distances. Sports? - Ok. Family events? -Ok. Children? - No problem at all.

3. Shooting speed. 2.5 or 3 frames per second until the memory card is full, if you use very fast flash card. 5 or even 9 RAW consecuent shots. Very good for many cases, even for people photography - they are always winking .

4. Better control of the process. It is for "pro".

So, if you simply want to take shots and to print them - the prosumer will suit you in most of the cases, especially on vacations. And if you are fond of photography (not "amateur birds photography", which can be well suited with Panasonic FZ30 or Pro815), the DSLR is your choice.

2:15 pm - Saturday, October 8, 2005

#81 nick

Great info Alexander! When I go out, I use my 10D with Sigma 170-500, which was tested in Canon mount , by Popular Photography, as actually a 168-550 f 5.0-f5.6 , which means it's actually a 269-880 with the 1.6X factor. I use this for my tele needs, and carry the old 22-55, if I need a more normal lens. I also use the F series of Sony, I love the IR feature in them , and the trimming feature in the F-828 will actually zoom and resize am image on a CF card from the 10D for an extra zoom bonus, just pop the card from the 10D into the 828 and proceed. I also have the new LX-1, which has given my life new "fun", it's 16x9 aspect ratio is awesome!. Why am I here in the Pro 815 blog?, because I am looking for that "Ideal Camera"!!! Looks like all the makers have great ideas incorporated in their products, but for some reason they can't put it all together. Bravo for the Samsung LED size and top feature, lens and noise reduction (Maybe), Bravo to Sony for IR, and noise reduction, Bravo to Panasonic for the 16X9 sensor and Image Stabalization, Bravo to Canon for CMOS advancements, Bravo to Nikon for getting quality images from 4mb(D2Hs) NOW, Lets have a camera that has it ALL.....Soon, maybe soon! Samsung is looking real good as the one to do it, maybe Panasonic....

8:23 pm - Saturday, October 8, 2005

#82 Stefan Hundhammer

Samsung Pro815 images with higher ISO values (ISO-400, ISO-200) available at:

http://www.suse.de/~sh/samsung-pro815/

I was at a Samsung road show today and asked if I could take some pictures with my own CF card. Read more about it at the link above.

5:51 pm - Friday, October 14, 2005

#83 Salvador

After watching to Stefan Hundhammer’s “real life 815’s shots”, I’m nothing but DECEIVED, this is, by the way, what I’m expecting many “Prosumer people”, will be, when finally being made public all the real possibilities of the 815.
I share all Stefan’s thoughts at 100%, cause they are millimeter by millimeter the same ones I had, and going to the final reflection of his long and very good study of what shoud one expect from an
IDEAL prosumer, high range (and not low priced) camera, I also think that Samsung put a nice bunch of good ideas together, (huge and good resolution back screen, extra zoom lenses starting at 28, extra fast response, long lasting battery, second top screen) and the list coud be longer, but on the bad side, they’r probably using a too little sensor –so noisy pictures at ridiculous low sensibilities- (look at SONY’s R-1 –preproduction! reviews at dpreview (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/) or Imaging resource, (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/R1/R1A.HTM) or dcresource (http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_r1-review/index.shtml) and you’ll see that R-1 pictures at ISO 400 are excellent and nearly noiseless, and you have to go to ISO 1600 or 3200
to have images as noisy as the ISO 400 - 815’s can be seen at Stefan’s report.
so, my heart has since the 815’s official press announcement been split between to wait or not to wait to really see if the creature will truly be what was announced.
I live nearby GERONA in Spain, and in my city’s Media Markt, the 815 is announced to be sold from next week.
I’ll still wait untill I can have it in my hands and do some tests, but with my sight put in the SONY R-1 that which -If I don’t change my mind-, is the one I will probably buy.
And being aged 56, my view is not 100% so I would apreciate the 3,5 inch screen, (front to the toyish 2 inch R-1 screen)
Something else I’d say is that for me the lack of IS is not a problem cause I like a lot to use the tripod, to say the truth I use it nearly always, and I think it is the only way of taking really good photos.
I have some galleries at (http://community.webshots.com/user/sfrigola2), all is done with my SONY W-1 and a lot of patience, I’d appreciate any comments about my humble work from anyone who wants to give a look, -thanks-.
I think the manufacturers are playing with us (the consumers), and probably we’ll spend our money with a camera not fulfilling 100% our expectations, when they have already prepared the next generation, (SONY R-2 with huge screen and bigger zoom, 1115 full frame cmos sensor, and IS, and so on)
In my youth to have a camera, and to be a photography hobbyst, was not a matter of stressed consuming, -every year or two a new one and a fast implement of new features to justify a quickly renewing market.
You coud buy a Leica, or Nikon, or Rolleiflex, Mamiya, Minolta, Pentax and so on, and keep it for years, and if you were a careful user and having a few lenses, you coud shot excellent photos for years and years after an initial investment –usually not as high as now with the digital-
Am I wrong ?

11:04 pm - Friday, October 14, 2005

#84 Jan

Salvador, you're absolutely right!
I feel the same.

I don't understand why manufacturers can be so self-conceited to ignore the whishes of their future clients....
Why don't they make a great use of the knowledge of the high end users and start a testpannel in the design-stage?
We all were in the beginning already anxious to know everything about NOISE and IMAGE STABILISATION. That were the hot items about this Pro815....
So, if these things are realy disappointing, then there is only one thing we must do as consumers: Don't buy this camera!
That is our power, to force them to make camera's WE would like. And if the technique is not that far: Don't make them.
I'm not saying that this is a bad camera, but there is something wrong in the whole process of launching this 'super'camera.
The general feeling has completely turned upside down, from exitement to suspiciousness.
I'm very curious how the big tests will be at: Steve's Digicams, Dpreview, Imaging-Resource,Dcresource, etc....
Why are there no tests yet?
The Sony-R1 as prototype has already been tested.... Thát's the right way to do things.
So SAMSUNG (and I know that they are reading this I hope that you do bétter next time.
If there is a next time.....................

Jan

6:18 am - Saturday, October 15, 2005

#85 Salvador, Jan and all others we agree!

Todays high tech knowledge could make us a dream photocamera and videocamera, but its their marketing policy which kills our possibilities. Anyway after two days experimenting with my Pro815 I must say for my use besides my videowork I still think I'm gonna be quite satisfied for some month....

7:07 am - Saturday, October 15, 2005

#86 Alexander

I'd like to add my 5c

First of all, Sony's R-1 sensor is much closer to 4/3 system than to APC, at least the pixel size equals the same from 4/3 system (currently from Olympus, but at the spring of 2006 - by Panasonic too). So it's a clear marketing that Sony didn't want to produce 4/3 system (they made an alliance with Minolta, so it would compete with Minolta mount). And another point - they make adverticement their sensor is APC size. It is not true, both in terms of size and noise.

The full-frame sensor puts much higher requirements to lens quality and size. If you look at any lens MTF you will see it falls to the perimeter of image produced. And if used at cropped DSLRs, the universal lens use only the best - central part of their image. But it is not vise versa - the special "designed for digital" lens cannot be used on the DSLRs with full-frame, only on cropped DSLRs. The resume is: if R-1 had full-frame, the lens size, cost and weight would be tremendous or the optics would be "cheap" in terms of speed and build quality, like any kit lens. This is the "fate" of prosumer - it should have better optics from the very beginning because it cannot have any other. So the full-frame isn't for prosumer in any way, I think. The owner of such an expensive camera would want to have an ability to add more range lens to his camera or use fixed lens. So the camera should have mount and changeble lens.

The last 3 prosumer makers, who haven't entered the DSLR marked yet, are going to produce DSLR from the beginning of the next year. The reason is very simple - the DSLR is the most profitable camera for its manufacture. As the prosumers require almost the same components (and even better - ELVs and LCDs) than DSLRs, the mirror is cheap, and the prosumers optics is really exopensive, but cannot cost much more than entry-level DSLRs. Keep in mind that non-kit lens from the original manufacture starts from about 400 $ for much less zoom range than 28-200. And the good DSLR lens for 28-200 could cost more than 2000$. So the profit is to be mush higher.

Sony has promised 2 DSLRs with Minolta mount and anti-shake next year. They may even start producing Zeiss branded lens for the Minolta mount.
Panasonic has allied with Olympus to produce 4/3 DSLR camera by itself next year too.
Samsung has done the same with Pentax. Their first camera (Pentax-based DSLR) has been promised to appear in the next spring.

So, what is the future of prosumers? All prosumer manufactures are producing DSLRs now. Minolta is talked to have A3 at design stage now, so maybe not everything has been lost to the prosumers.

8:48 am - Saturday, October 15, 2005

#87 Mikey

Here is what I want to know - how did Samsung manage to get higher noise with a 2/3 sensor than even the noisy Panasonic 1/1.8 sensor on the FZ30?!! The 815 sensor is like 2x the size of the FZ30 and yet the ISO400 images are noisier. OK, so Panasonic has used over-aggressive noise reduction in camera and let's say Samsung had the good sense to leave that to post-processing where you can run better algorithms. But the level of noise in the ISO400 shots really cannot be explained with lack of NR alone, at least I don't think so. There was not a single usable ISO400 image! Just as I expected, a typical Samsung product - awsome spec sheet and utter lack of quality in parameters that are harder to measure.

12:12 pm - Monday, October 17, 2005

#88 Stefan Hundhammer

Mikey, you cannot compare the ISO-400 noise levels of the FZ-30 to the Pro815 based on those shots. You'd need the same test scenario for that - the same motif, the same lighting conditions, the same (or at least similar) aperture and shutter speeds.

And even if the FZ-30 turned out to handle that a little bit better - so what, ISO-400 is equally unusable on both cameras.

The one thing that really turned me off with the FZ-30 is that there is visible noise even in the lowest ISO setting (ISO-80) - see
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz30/page6.asp

It is one thing if high ISO levels are unusable - fans of that camera can argue "so what, I always shoot at the lowest setting anyway". But it is a completely different pair of shoes if the camera doesn't even make good photos in that lowest setting!

High Megapixels and superzooms are a difficult thing to get right without getting too much noise.

And in this area I give Samsung good credit: Not only are they using the larger sensor (2/3"), they also made the optics of that camera much larger physically. This does not require them to pack the sensor elements so tightly, so in low ISO (ISO-50) the Pro815 really makes good pictures. I could not detect noise there.

This is something that kind of keeps me hanging on to that camera. Maybe dpreview.com or one of the other professional reviewers find that despite the lack of usable high ISOs the Pro815 is a good camera after all - if you only use a tripod when using longer focal lengths under poor lighting conditions.

Maybe - just maybe.

6:39 pm - Monday, October 17, 2005

#89 Sxilderik

Request to the Admin (or Alexander)

Could you please edit messages #70 and #73 and replace the overlong URLs? urls can not wrap and those two posts make this whole forum UNREADABLE (even in 1600x1200, I have to scroll horizontally to read each sentence, which grows old very rapidly)

Thanks.

3:13 pm - Friday, October 21, 2005

#90 Jan

Ah, so thát's the case!
I wondered why I had to scroll.
Thanks Sxilderik!
I hope there is a moderator

Jan

6:11 pm - Friday, October 21, 2005

#91 Mark Goldstein

It should all be fixed now

8:21 am - Saturday, October 22, 2005

#92 Jan

For our Dutch reading members there is a review over at FOTOcentraal:

http://www.fotocentraal.nl/review.php?id=170

Jan.

7:58 am - Sunday, October 23, 2005

#93 Stefan Hundhammer

Jan, thanks for the link to that Dutch review. Even though I don't speak Dutch, with my German and English I think I could make some sense of that review.

As far as I understood, they really seem to like the Pro815 - handling, image quality, etc.; OTOH they don't even mention the lack of an image stabilizer or how it behaves with higher ISO values.

The one thing they seem to criticize seems to be something about colors - they even point to PaintShop Pro which apparently has filters to improve purple fringing. That sounds like they detected problems with purple fringing or chromatic aberrations.

Jan, is that what "verkleurde randen" ("colored edges"?) and "kleurschifting" ("color shifting"? "chromatic aberrations"?) is all about?

TIA

9:56 am - Monday, October 24, 2005

#94 Jan

TIA wrote:
Jan, is that what “verkleurde randen” ("colored edges”?) and “kleurschifting” ("color shifting”? “chromatic aberrations”?) is all about?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, you're right TIA.
I'm not a good translator, but the overall conclusion is, that it is an excellent camera, except for the color shifting/colored edges/chromatic aberrations....
Maybe you can use this translation tool:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

But, indeed there is no extra attention for NOISE in higher ISO values or the lack of IS.
So, I don't consider this as a proper test.
We still have to wait for Steve and all the other well-known sites.

Jan.

10:35 am - Monday, October 24, 2005

#95 Jan

Two new opinions at dpreview:

Review 1

Review 2

10:53 am - Monday, October 24, 2005

#96 Jan

Hm, the links don't go to the correct sites.
The only two real opinions are the ones of 21 and 24 oktober.
Don't bother to read tef rest, they are fake.
The more I read, the less interest I have in this camera....:-(

Jan

10:58 am - Monday, October 24, 2005

#97 Salvador

In spite of my doubts I continue hoping to live long enough to see the 815 reviews from serious sites like dpreview etc., I think that if Samsung had anticipated the sense of expectancy that was going to provoke its PRO 815 perhaps they shouldn't have presented/displayed in public as of much in advance, and self assuming a compromise with a date to launching;
Now they are perhaps victims of its own error, because this type of camera will wake up the interest of a fan with some professionalism, that consequently will be quite exigent about its characteristics and features, what would perhaps not happened, not having announced the camera like "a world wide champion" in the sense of pretending to be, not one more of so many cameras, but the number one that should beat several records (screen of 3.5 inches, super-super zoom lens, and others).
I keep sunk into my ponderings: instead of the PRO 815, I could buy the FZ-30 -- attention, stop! high noise!, I could buy the R-1 -- attention! has less zoom range! and the "roof" back screen, it's smaller! --the 815's huge BS!, has to be wonderful!.
Therefore at the moment, until I don't see reviews of dp, dcresource and steves, my only possibility is to eat my nails and wait, and wait. like Casablanca's refugees for the Lisbon plane...
I suspect that I am not the only one that has these problems, Ja, Ja...
By the way why are there only a few owners in Korea. and why they publish only small samples, (in only one or two cases the original is available), and why most of the shots are flowers macros, when, as everybody knows, its a simple way to present photos looking good even with a mediocre camera
Salvador

3:21 pm - Monday, October 24, 2005

#98 Salvador

Today 10/25/2005, at 12:15 A.M. I bought a PRO-815 from Media Markt stores at Gerona (Spain), they've been delivered to the shop this morning by 10:00 and I've been the first to buy one.
Today I had nothing to do, and I spent the whole afternoon shooting and testing.
It's really impressive! (the 3,5" BS, and the zoom lens seems to be very good), Nevertheless, I quickly noticed that you can only get clean (no noisy) images shooting at ISO 50.
It is obvious that I am not going to make excessive affirmations after having used it for a few hours, but I'll be publishing here my opinions as far as I'll be acquiring experience with its use.
Salvador

6:09 pm - Tuesday, October 25, 2005

#99 Stefan Hundhammer

It looks like dpreview is in the process of making a review of the Pro815: They released some test results in their Fuji S9000 review:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilms9000/page7.asp

(scroll down to noise graph)

According to that comparison chart, the Pro815 is good at ISO-50 and gets noisy from ISO-100 on - on about the level of the FZ-30 (which has an image stabilizer, thus does not need low noise on high ISOs for long telephoto shots).

Here

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilms9000/page13.asp

they compare the resolution of several cameras, including the Pro815. 1550 lpi both horizontally and vertically - hm, not bad, but not cutting edge, either.

I guess the full review will be released any day now.

3:59 pm - Tuesday, November 1, 2005

#100 Salvador

Today at 17:00 PM. I took my PRO-815 back to MediaMarkt shop (u have 15 days to do that) I got my money back, and now I know 100% sure I WILL NOT BUY A PRO-815 cause I didn't like at all.
Well to be sincere I guess the optics are very good quality, and an excellent sharpness is kept along all the zoom range.
Start-up time very quick, it writes to memory quickly aswell, the back TFT is really big despite being difficult to see with outside daylight conditions, and the viewfinder makes very difficult to focus if you work in manual mode.
I haven't found to be very useful this system of having two screens for normal or waist level use, cause the upper one is so small that you can hardly precise the scene small details, by testing this camera I discovered that it is probably better the flip and turning back TFT ones like DMC-FZ30
where you can have any position.
What actually deceived me is the noise at any (I say any) ISO sensibility, the higher, the noisier, of course, but I stated that even at ISO 50, depending of how dark is the scene, you have unacceptable levels of noise, and I tried to take some night shots from a hill where you can see my town, and for my surprise, I got better results with my SONY W-1 that with the 815.
After taking a photo with long expositions, both the 815 and the W-1 say; "PROCESSING",
than after a while, you get the photo, I presume, during this "PROCESSING" time the electronics quality has much to do with the achieved result, and thus the dirtier or noisier picture means that it is not capable to convert this poor or lack of information recorded by the CCD into an acceptable photography.
I don't know it this (self procedure) is accurate or not as a means to indicate the quality of the CCD's data processing, for me it has to be.
The overall quality, chromatic fidelity, so and so.
The battery charge doesn't keep too long I presume it's because of the long use of the back TFT
The movie mode, nothing to write home about,
I'd say that my W-1 does better.
So after my personal test I got very deceived.
I was needing to test it, after so long wait, now I think I'll probably buy the FZ-30, despite its noise I think it does not degrade the image too much and the 815 does.
SALVADOR

1:05 am - Thursday, November 3, 2005